“How have we done such a bad job teaching that we are so stuck on these verses and how to interpret them?” I think about this a lot.
To support your point further on Rome, Alice Evans, PhD who writes “The Great Gender Divergence,” just published a piece this morning about the differences in status and expectations between patriarchal and hierarchical societies and egalitarian ones, citing Rome’s institutionalization of gender deference.
“It's hard to believe that God created women and men in God's image and gave them the same responsibilities in the beginning before sin and that in the end after sin we are again aiming at the same future, yet that never comes into play in the kingdom now.” Love these points, but this one left me curious:
When I was at FLI being taught RBMW, I always heard the teaching go that “through Christ, we can be redeemed *into the fulfillment of* our God-given gender roles and (as the gaslighting went), un-upset by hierarchical differences.”
My question then: Have you heard complementarians sight redemption of equality between men and women in the end times using Rev. 22:5? Or are you using that passage to argue, “well, how do you explain this?”
So many good things here, Lisa. Thanks for taking the time to write, wearying as these conversations may be.
I love reading your response; I'll have to look up that post by Evans.
I have not heard complementarians discuss the redemption of equality. Either they have been silent or it was a case from when people were still using ESS to support comp. I think we should be talking about it though. If there is a much more solid case for reading equality instead of hierarchy in Gen 1-2 (I understand it's debated) AND our end is the same, that has to say something.
Thanks for clarifying and pulling that Scripture into the conversation. I agree! Conversations usually gets stalled in Paul’s letters, so I hadn’t heard Rev. used before to paint a full picture, beginning to end. :)
The definition of prophesy has been a bit cloudy for me and I found the way you explained it to be very helpful! Your thoughts and insights into these scriptures are how I discovered you in the first place and I’m always grateful for your deep dives on women’s roles in the church.
I think the word “submit” has been taken out of context (speaking generally here). Explaining the verse as you do here it is not that women can’t be gifted and speak in the church (which is often used way out of context). I think the same can be said for Ephesians 5 about submission.
I read a commentary on it and J. Vernon McGee was quoted showing “submit” again but as a gentle loving word based on the agape love of Christ. I think we get hung up on the Greco-Roman interpretation but in actuality “submission” to the empire is replaced with “submission” to Christ. Paul is keeping with the order of houses based on the culture but Christ must be our ultimate representation of love and submission.
“How have we done such a bad job teaching that we are so stuck on these verses and how to interpret them?” I think about this a lot.
To support your point further on Rome, Alice Evans, PhD who writes “The Great Gender Divergence,” just published a piece this morning about the differences in status and expectations between patriarchal and hierarchical societies and egalitarian ones, citing Rome’s institutionalization of gender deference.
“It's hard to believe that God created women and men in God's image and gave them the same responsibilities in the beginning before sin and that in the end after sin we are again aiming at the same future, yet that never comes into play in the kingdom now.” Love these points, but this one left me curious:
When I was at FLI being taught RBMW, I always heard the teaching go that “through Christ, we can be redeemed *into the fulfillment of* our God-given gender roles and (as the gaslighting went), un-upset by hierarchical differences.”
My question then: Have you heard complementarians sight redemption of equality between men and women in the end times using Rev. 22:5? Or are you using that passage to argue, “well, how do you explain this?”
So many good things here, Lisa. Thanks for taking the time to write, wearying as these conversations may be.
I love reading your response; I'll have to look up that post by Evans.
I have not heard complementarians discuss the redemption of equality. Either they have been silent or it was a case from when people were still using ESS to support comp. I think we should be talking about it though. If there is a much more solid case for reading equality instead of hierarchy in Gen 1-2 (I understand it's debated) AND our end is the same, that has to say something.
Thanks for clarifying and pulling that Scripture into the conversation. I agree! Conversations usually gets stalled in Paul’s letters, so I hadn’t heard Rev. used before to paint a full picture, beginning to end. :)
Lisa, thank you for taking us along on this deep dive! So helpful!
I'm so glad it was helpful, Alicia!
The definition of prophesy has been a bit cloudy for me and I found the way you explained it to be very helpful! Your thoughts and insights into these scriptures are how I discovered you in the first place and I’m always grateful for your deep dives on women’s roles in the church.
Thank you, Carli! I'm glad it was helpful!
Well said Lisa. I think this also puts into contention Ephesians 5:21-33. Hoping you can clarify that a bit more for me.
Joelle, tell me more about the tension you are feeling between this post and Ephesians 5! If I can speak into that, I will. Thank you for reading!
I think the word “submit” has been taken out of context (speaking generally here). Explaining the verse as you do here it is not that women can’t be gifted and speak in the church (which is often used way out of context). I think the same can be said for Ephesians 5 about submission.
I read a commentary on it and J. Vernon McGee was quoted showing “submit” again but as a gentle loving word based on the agape love of Christ. I think we get hung up on the Greco-Roman interpretation but in actuality “submission” to the empire is replaced with “submission” to Christ. Paul is keeping with the order of houses based on the culture but Christ must be our ultimate representation of love and submission.