This is a really helpful conversation -- I've forwarded it to several people! Also your footnote game is 💯. I'm listening because I appreciate your thought process! These are things I wrestle with as I raise a boy and a girl and I want to talk about gender with wisdom. Keep going. :)
I aso believe Genesis 3 is making the point that women's "sin/weakness" too often is to make dependence on a man an idol. But that's what we're told all the time so it's no wonder we believe it. Where I see it also causing lots of damage is to the men. My husband struggles with believing he's a proper "man/head of the home" because he's not a natural leader. He's no less committed to the gospel or to following Jesus, it just looks different than some of the men he knows & admires.
Amen to all of this! Becoming like Christ is what we should all be striving for, and descriptions of Christ break what current (white American) culture defines as male and female attributes.
My husband once challenged me to find an attribute of the human race that could be specifically male or female. Every single thing I could come up with we both could name an individual we knew as an exception, which would then lead to us finding more people it didn’t fit.
I think it’s important for us as Christ followers to not fall into the trap of saying something is explicitly male or female. I can see way more harm than bringing people together, isolating individuals who may not see themselves that way or leading them to question who they are and why they were made that way. Rather than seeing ourselves or others as perfectly and wonderfully made in God’s image, we are creating more ways for the world to tell us how we are flawed, imperfect, and how if we would just fix this thing we would be accepted and loved.
I have a *lot* more I can say about this topic, from my personal life experience with my own identity, to the awareness of how we talk in a gendered way about children before they are even born, to my own continuing questions on what changes we can be making day to day. Looking forward to where this conversation goes.
AJ, I love this exercise that your husband challenged you to! So practical and clarifying. It’s hard to keep up gendered scripts with an exercise like this.
Yes! You can't find the traits that are only for one gender. It's interesting to me that we realize we usually leave the reasons that we are teaching some of these gendered traits behind but then we just find new reasons instead of evaluating our teaching.
Lisa, YES (x 1,000). “What we actually need is for those men to look more like Christ.” My husband *once* attended a men’s conference with a friend at a local megachurch in our area. Wrestling in the front lobby, pictures with famous athletes, ax-throwing: He was appalled. How are these things supposed to make men better disciples?
I’ve done a lot of research into why we talk about gender like we do in evangelical Christianity. A lot of how we do it today dates back to the early 20th century with the development of family science (which in the early days, was more pseudo-science than empirical) from men like Paul Popenoe, who influenced James Dobson, who influenced a lot of the “men are like and women are like this, period” rhetoric regurgitated in way too many mainstream Christian writings.
When you say some of the gender scripts are found in psychological studies, can you cite any of those? As a couples therapist, the most reputable models today are completely egalitarian, and neuroscience has advanced enough to prove many our former gender tropes wrong. Just curious if you’ve come across any!
I'm horrified by this men's conference. Wow. And I don't have any studies with gender scripts; I just know that if they are there, people use psychological studies to back it up (though I recognize many of them are faulty or biased). I haven't done the work there so I wanted to leave it open. Have you written any about this? Or do you have the margin to share any of the resources you have found?
Such a sad story about the pastor’s wife as well. If we can’t teach men and women to be like Christ, then we have a major problem...one that’s glaring as a sit with couples wrestling with the very things you’ve described that Christian men and women (unnecessarily) struggle with, all because of lazy gender theology and cultural Christian teachings. You can tell I have lots to say about this topic, haha. Thank you, Lisa, for starting this conversation!
I love that you have so much to say about it! Don't ever apologize for that. We do have a big problem that we don't have to have. Thanks for participating!
Love all these comments ❤️ thanks for starting the conversation. We could also say, all stereotypes need to be examined through scripture because stereotypes are lazy and at best presumptive. Looking forward to continuing this conversation, as I’m raising 3 boys and want to press into the nuance of “gender roles”, especially in today’s climate. I don’t want to be accused of sticking my head in the sand with this conversation.
Not to villianize this pastor’s wife, but people like her who are in a “status” position are seem to “defend/protect” the hierarchy without much thought, when in the moment. I just don’t see where she could disagree with being more like Christ if she’s read any of Paul’s epistles.
I completely agree that stereotypes are lazy. If we don't use them, we have to do the work of getting to know individuals and that's a lot harder. It's also harder to market and sell our ideas if they don't appeal to a broader market.
And it's definitely not my intention to villianize her either. I really don't think she had the framework to think it through at all.
Amen. There’s a time and place for “averages” but it’s probably better if that stays in the mathematical and medical field, not for people.
I don’t think it came across as villianizing, I just didn’t want to start a thread on the wrong idea. (Edit: In my own experiences I have noticed the tendency to defend hierarchy. Didn’t want to read as hypocritical. I was typing while interrupted by little men)
I often half jokingly say "I'm not a real woman" because I don't wear make up or desire to wear fancy clothes or have my hair done up, etc. I'm also out going and my personality doesn't align with the "good Christian wife" that is implied in a lot of theological circles and church cultures. It's been a huge struggle for me having been talked down to several times by our last pastor due to these things. I struggle to cling to my value as a daughter of God regardless of my style (stay at home mom who is a big fan of athlesiure 😍😂) and to believe that God actually wants to use my "loud" personality for the Kingdom when it seems like so many places are saying "shhhh it's proper for you to shrink back"
Also, I was talking with my husband awhile back about the stereotype that "men are more visual" and therefore struggle with addiction to pornography more than women do. And perhaps I'm wrong, but I just wonder if society has tailor made that with all of the content available to men and the shouting over and over again "you're more visual, this is a struggle for you!" And I wonder how many women are silently struggling with a sexual addiction because "that's supposed to be a man's struggle and shouldn't be mine"
Just some musings on the topic... Thanks for sharing, I appreciate this space!
Right. Visualization isn’t always eyes either. There’s a huge problem with romance novels really just being shy of or outright porn. I think Phylicia Masonhiemer points that issue out really well. I think it’s foolish that women are left out of the porn stereotype, when there’s enough data to support the fact that women do in fact have sex drives. 😆
I think it’s “Christian slut shaming” culture if a woman openly admits she has a problem with it. But I think we might be detailing the original topic 😆
I think it applies to the conversation for sure. Not to mention the implications of a wife having a stronger sex drive than her husband.. if she is desiring intimacy in that way more often and he isn't it can cause the woman to believe something is wrong with her and she's not desirable or wanted because "men just want sex all the time and have high sex drives" etc etc
I'm so sorry that you have also struggled with this. It's not fair; you should never have been taught this. God made you and your specific personality is good for the kingdom and the world.
I'm pretty sure there is no actual backing for the idea that men are more visual. I certainly raise my hand as a very visual person. And it does make women struggle in silence because they can't come admit to a "man's" sin. Thanks for being here and participating!
Spaces like this are a blessing to remind one another we're not alone and we're not broken. Well... We are broken in the sinful everyone is broken kinda way, but I think you know what I'm getting at :)
... I think there is much you might disagree with and yet, when we found Captivating, my friends and I saw what God had healed in our femininity or what He wanted to.
Aside from that, I agree with your post wholeheartedly, especially the part of us pushing men to be "more of a man." A former therapist told me how much of a burden guys carry with this.
Well, I just feel honored to be included in a group with JHP :)
This is a really helpful conversation -- I've forwarded it to several people! Also your footnote game is 💯. I'm listening because I appreciate your thought process! These are things I wrestle with as I raise a boy and a girl and I want to talk about gender with wisdom. Keep going. :)
Thanks for sharing it, Sarah, and wrestling with the issue as well. I love the footnote feature on Substack.
I aso believe Genesis 3 is making the point that women's "sin/weakness" too often is to make dependence on a man an idol. But that's what we're told all the time so it's no wonder we believe it. Where I see it also causing lots of damage is to the men. My husband struggles with believing he's a proper "man/head of the home" because he's not a natural leader. He's no less committed to the gospel or to following Jesus, it just looks different than some of the men he knows & admires.
Yes, it's very strange to me that often we teach the sin side of relationships for both genders. Αnd I agree that this causes a lot of damage to men!
Amen to all of this! Becoming like Christ is what we should all be striving for, and descriptions of Christ break what current (white American) culture defines as male and female attributes.
My husband once challenged me to find an attribute of the human race that could be specifically male or female. Every single thing I could come up with we both could name an individual we knew as an exception, which would then lead to us finding more people it didn’t fit.
I think it’s important for us as Christ followers to not fall into the trap of saying something is explicitly male or female. I can see way more harm than bringing people together, isolating individuals who may not see themselves that way or leading them to question who they are and why they were made that way. Rather than seeing ourselves or others as perfectly and wonderfully made in God’s image, we are creating more ways for the world to tell us how we are flawed, imperfect, and how if we would just fix this thing we would be accepted and loved.
I have a *lot* more I can say about this topic, from my personal life experience with my own identity, to the awareness of how we talk in a gendered way about children before they are even born, to my own continuing questions on what changes we can be making day to day. Looking forward to where this conversation goes.
I appreciate your joining in!
AJ, I love this exercise that your husband challenged you to! So practical and clarifying. It’s hard to keep up gendered scripts with an exercise like this.
Yes! You can't find the traits that are only for one gender. It's interesting to me that we realize we usually leave the reasons that we are teaching some of these gendered traits behind but then we just find new reasons instead of evaluating our teaching.
Lisa, YES (x 1,000). “What we actually need is for those men to look more like Christ.” My husband *once* attended a men’s conference with a friend at a local megachurch in our area. Wrestling in the front lobby, pictures with famous athletes, ax-throwing: He was appalled. How are these things supposed to make men better disciples?
I’ve done a lot of research into why we talk about gender like we do in evangelical Christianity. A lot of how we do it today dates back to the early 20th century with the development of family science (which in the early days, was more pseudo-science than empirical) from men like Paul Popenoe, who influenced James Dobson, who influenced a lot of the “men are like and women are like this, period” rhetoric regurgitated in way too many mainstream Christian writings.
When you say some of the gender scripts are found in psychological studies, can you cite any of those? As a couples therapist, the most reputable models today are completely egalitarian, and neuroscience has advanced enough to prove many our former gender tropes wrong. Just curious if you’ve come across any!
I'm horrified by this men's conference. Wow. And I don't have any studies with gender scripts; I just know that if they are there, people use psychological studies to back it up (though I recognize many of them are faulty or biased). I haven't done the work there so I wanted to leave it open. Have you written any about this? Or do you have the margin to share any of the resources you have found?
Such a sad story about the pastor’s wife as well. If we can’t teach men and women to be like Christ, then we have a major problem...one that’s glaring as a sit with couples wrestling with the very things you’ve described that Christian men and women (unnecessarily) struggle with, all because of lazy gender theology and cultural Christian teachings. You can tell I have lots to say about this topic, haha. Thank you, Lisa, for starting this conversation!
I love that you have so much to say about it! Don't ever apologize for that. We do have a big problem that we don't have to have. Thanks for participating!
Love all these comments ❤️ thanks for starting the conversation. We could also say, all stereotypes need to be examined through scripture because stereotypes are lazy and at best presumptive. Looking forward to continuing this conversation, as I’m raising 3 boys and want to press into the nuance of “gender roles”, especially in today’s climate. I don’t want to be accused of sticking my head in the sand with this conversation.
Not to villianize this pastor’s wife, but people like her who are in a “status” position are seem to “defend/protect” the hierarchy without much thought, when in the moment. I just don’t see where she could disagree with being more like Christ if she’s read any of Paul’s epistles.
I completely agree that stereotypes are lazy. If we don't use them, we have to do the work of getting to know individuals and that's a lot harder. It's also harder to market and sell our ideas if they don't appeal to a broader market.
And it's definitely not my intention to villianize her either. I really don't think she had the framework to think it through at all.
Amen. There’s a time and place for “averages” but it’s probably better if that stays in the mathematical and medical field, not for people.
I don’t think it came across as villianizing, I just didn’t want to start a thread on the wrong idea. (Edit: In my own experiences I have noticed the tendency to defend hierarchy. Didn’t want to read as hypocritical. I was typing while interrupted by little men)
I often half jokingly say "I'm not a real woman" because I don't wear make up or desire to wear fancy clothes or have my hair done up, etc. I'm also out going and my personality doesn't align with the "good Christian wife" that is implied in a lot of theological circles and church cultures. It's been a huge struggle for me having been talked down to several times by our last pastor due to these things. I struggle to cling to my value as a daughter of God regardless of my style (stay at home mom who is a big fan of athlesiure 😍😂) and to believe that God actually wants to use my "loud" personality for the Kingdom when it seems like so many places are saying "shhhh it's proper for you to shrink back"
Also, I was talking with my husband awhile back about the stereotype that "men are more visual" and therefore struggle with addiction to pornography more than women do. And perhaps I'm wrong, but I just wonder if society has tailor made that with all of the content available to men and the shouting over and over again "you're more visual, this is a struggle for you!" And I wonder how many women are silently struggling with a sexual addiction because "that's supposed to be a man's struggle and shouldn't be mine"
Just some musings on the topic... Thanks for sharing, I appreciate this space!
Right. Visualization isn’t always eyes either. There’s a huge problem with romance novels really just being shy of or outright porn. I think Phylicia Masonhiemer points that issue out really well. I think it’s foolish that women are left out of the porn stereotype, when there’s enough data to support the fact that women do in fact have sex drives. 😆
Yes! Phylicia's take on this is eye opening and helpful for sure!
I think it’s “Christian slut shaming” culture if a woman openly admits she has a problem with it. But I think we might be detailing the original topic 😆
I think it applies to the conversation for sure. Not to mention the implications of a wife having a stronger sex drive than her husband.. if she is desiring intimacy in that way more often and he isn't it can cause the woman to believe something is wrong with her and she's not desirable or wanted because "men just want sex all the time and have high sex drives" etc etc
Yes! All of this is tangled into this conversation for sure!
It's not derailing but if it were done like this, always derail. And yes, women do in fact have sex drives. Laughed out loud when I read that.
I'm so sorry that you have also struggled with this. It's not fair; you should never have been taught this. God made you and your specific personality is good for the kingdom and the world.
I'm pretty sure there is no actual backing for the idea that men are more visual. I certainly raise my hand as a very visual person. And it does make women struggle in silence because they can't come admit to a "man's" sin. Thanks for being here and participating!
Spaces like this are a blessing to remind one another we're not alone and we're not broken. Well... We are broken in the sinful everyone is broken kinda way, but I think you know what I'm getting at :)
Dear Lisa,
You write so beautifully and clearly. Have you read Wild at Heart and Captivating by John and Stasi Eldredge?
... I think there is much you might disagree with and yet, when we found Captivating, my friends and I saw what God had healed in our femininity or what He wanted to.
Aside from that, I agree with your post wholeheartedly, especially the part of us pushing men to be "more of a man." A former therapist told me how much of a burden guys carry with this.